April 6, 2004 RO Chemistry Chatroom Session Notes

Wes (Tue 7:42pm 192.168.0.201):"Agenda for tonight: Homework, Discussion Board, Final Project, Final Exam, Upcoming courses"

Wes (Tue 7:42pm 192.168.0.201):"First, any pressing issues?"

Allan W (Tue 7:43pm 24.68.197.106):"n"

Bill (Tue 7:43pm 65.29.55.15):"n"

Steve (Tue 7:43pm 208.38.86.149):"just the final project thought"

Wes (Tue 7:43pm 192.168.0.201):"We will get to that in a bit."

Wes (Tue 7:44pm 192.168.0.201):"Homework: We have a few students late with their Homework C assignment. In itself it it is not a big deal, but we now have about one month left in this class. In this time, you will have one more homework assignment, a Final Project, and the Final Exam to successfully complete. Do not delay. The sooner you get these assignments in, the better chance you will have for improving your score."

Wes (Tue 7:44pm 192.168.0.201):"Any problems I should know about?"

Steve (Tue 7:44pm 208.38.86.149):"n"

Wes (Tue 7:45pm 192.168.0.201):"Qny questions about the homework or the next assignment?"

Wes (Tue 7:46pm 192.168.0.201):"If not, we will move on."

Steve (Tue 7:46pm 208.38.86.149):"What is the next assignment"

Bill (Tue 7:46pm 65.29.55.15):"n"

Wes (Tue 7:47pm 192.168.0.201):"It involves some jumping around in your reading, but I think you will figure it out."

Wes (Tue 7:47pm 192.168.0.201):"Read pp 18-22, sodium on p 34, misc ions on pp 36-39, and membrane choice pp 41-50. Do end-of-chapter questions 9-11, & 21. "

Ed C (Tue 7:47pm 4.152.237.188):"I was finding it interesting that the UF has more fouling issues than the RO and that it's is uded time and time again as pretreatment, was there a time when this was a "trend" in water treatment I know that IONICS sells their triple membrane system as an all in one package especially to power plants."

Wes (Tue 7:48pm 192.168.0.201):"Would anyone like to respond to this before I do."

Allan W (Tue 7:49pm 24.68.197.106):"We use both in our unit"

Steve (Tue 7:49pm 208.38.86.149):"backwashing? Cleaning?"

Allan W (Tue 7:49pm 24.68.197.106):"however, we use the UF after the RO"

Wes (Tue 7:49pm 192.168.0.201):"There have been advances, particularly in hollow fiber technology."

Ed C (Tue 7:50pm 4.152.237.188):"In my past I have used it as a particle clean up before the UPW loops "

Wes (Tue 7:50pm 192.168.0.201):"Hollow fiber can be bachwashed and the membrane material allows the use of high chlorine concentrations."

Steve (Tue 7:50pm 208.38.86.149):"but as pretreatment?"

Steve (Tue 7:51pm 208.38.86.149):"OK"

Wes (Tue 7:51pm 192.168.0.201):"It works pretty well if you can burn out the fouling particles."

Allan W (Tue 7:52pm 24.68.197.106):""Burn Out"??"

Wes (Tue 7:52pm 192.168.0.201):"oxidize"

Steve (Tue 7:52pm 208.38.86.149):"Burn means bio or mineral or both"

Ed C (Tue 7:52pm 4.152.237.188):"Do you automatically take into account the flow loss you will have when designing the units and if so is there always a recoverable part of the flow that you gain back after cleaning that you can count on, is this based on the manufacturers guidlines or personal experience"

Wes (Tue 7:53pm 192.168.0.201):"My experience is you will lose up to 50% of the initial flow, mostly permanently."

Ed C (Tue 7:53pm 4.152.237.188):"Will the rest be recoverable through routine cleanings "

Wes (Tue 7:54pm 192.168.0.201):"After a significant loss in flow permanently, their performance stabilizes well and quarterly or annual cleaning is all that is required, other than frequent use of chlorine."

Wes (Tue 7:55pm 192.168.0.201):"But flux rates are so high with the new fibers and there is so much membrane area, good flow is achievavle with pressures less than 15 psi."

Bill (Tue 7:55pm 65.29.55.15):"FilmTec's ROSA program uses about 5% flow loss per year that would not be recoverable with effective cleaning. It all depends on the feedstream."

Ed C (Tue 7:55pm 4.152.237.188):"due to the porosity of the UF mechanism which is different from the RO are there aftermarket coating treatments like there are for RO's"

Steve (Tue 7:56pm 208.38.86.149):"I doubt it"

Wes (Tue 7:56pm 192.168.0.201):"Sometimes UF systems are used in coagulation processes."

Wes (Tue 7:56pm 192.168.0.201):"The coagulation aid acts as a coating material."

Steve (Tue 7:57pm 208.38.86.149):"Huh? How"

Wes (Tue 7:57pm 192.168.0.201):"We are seeing more of these membrane systems in municipal applications to reduce turbidity to meet tightening EPA requirements."

Wes (Tue 7:58pm 192.168.0.201):"Steve, the coagulant and pH adjustment is made directly before th membrane system."

Ed C (Tue 7:58pm 4.152.237.188):"polymer based or metal based"

Wes (Tue 7:59pm 192.168.0.201):"Either"

Ed C (Tue 7:59pm 4.152.237.188):"so the coagulants are used as like a precoat in a septa filter DE set up"

Steve (Tue 7:59pm 208.38.86.149):"Permenent coating to the UF? or temp"

Wes (Tue 7:59pm 192.168.0.201):"One company puts fiber bundles right in the reaction tank."

Wes (Tue 8:00pm 192.168.0.201):"temp"

Wes (Tue 8:00pm 192.168.0.201):"I just heard Hutchinson, MN just put in a system, and Minneapolis is expanding theirs."

Wes (Tue 8:01pm 192.168.0.201):"Not coagulation based, just filtration."

Steve (Tue 8:01pm 208.38.86.149):"Is that any different than a filter press becoming more effecient after it starts the "loading" process?"

Wes (Tue 8:02pm 192.168.0.201):"a little, but the membrane is already quite tight"

Steve (Tue 8:02pm 208.38.86.149):"OK"

Wes (Tue 8:03pm 192.168.0.201):"Let's move on."

Wes (Tue 8:03pm 192.168.0.201):"Discussion Board: I have seen an effort from a few students, but would like to see more from the others. Remember you can comment on anything and everything on the Board. In this last month, I will weigh Discussion Board activity heavily on the last participation point. Questions?"

Allan W (Tue 8:03pm 24.68.197.106):"n"

Steve (Tue 8:04pm 208.38.86.149):"n"

Bill (Tue 8:04pm 65.29.55.15):"n"

Wes (Tue 8:04pm 192.168.0.201):"Final Project: I have posted a general report format for the last project. I would like you to research something of interest or controversy related to water chemistry. It can be about a new product, technology, or method. You should let me know what it is to make sure it is unique."

Wes (Tue 8:05pm 192.168.0.201):"Possible ideas might include 1) more in-depth research and discussion about particle charge as it applies to the coagulation process, 2) advanced research and discussion about electron orbitals and how their orientation affects the spacial configuration of molecules and subsequently their characteristics, 3) research on the methods used to create new elements during the last ten years, 4) how was Avogadro able to figure out how many molecules there are in a mole, 5) how municipalities are able to destroy viruses with chlorination while creating minimal THMs, 6) what is an optimum crossflow rate to prevent fouling and how would it affect pressure drop, 7) how are RO membrane manufacturers achieving improved flux and rejection characteristics?"

Wes (Tue 8:06pm 192.168.0.201):"Does that make sense?"

Allan W (Tue 8:07pm 24.68.197.106):"y"

Ed C (Tue 8:07pm 4.152.237.188):"y"

Steve (Tue 8:07pm 208.38.86.149):"y"

Wes (Tue 8:07pm 192.168.0.201):"Do you like choosing your own projects?"

Bill (Tue 8:07pm 65.29.55.15):"ok"

Allan W (Tue 8:08pm 24.68.197.106):"I like choosing, however, if a list of topics was provided, that wouldn't hurt either"

Bill (Tue 8:08pm 65.29.55.15):"y"

Ed C (Tue 8:08pm 4.152.237.188):"yes it allows me to llok at something I always guessed about"

Ed C (Tue 8:08pm 4.152.237.188):"but a list is also nice"

Wes (Tue 8:09pm 192.168.0.201):"Feel free to use one I just mentioned if it motivates you."

Wes (Tue 8:10pm 192.168.0.201):"Final Exam: I strongly recommend you start working on getting through the CD and trying the final exam. We already have had one successful student, but do not assume that it will be easy. If you fail, you can try it againg. But if you do not pass the final exam in the given time, you get none of the 15 points allotted for it. The final day for getting in all assignments and confirmation of passing the exam is Monday, May 10."

Wes (Tue 8:10pm 192.168.0.201):"any questions on the CD final?"

Steve (Tue 8:11pm 208.38.86.149):"n"

Allan W (Tue 8:11pm 24.68.197.106):"n"

Wes (Tue 8:12pm 192.168.0.201):"Upcoming courses: Registration for RO Principles, the Summer offering, begins next week. First chatroom session is June 8. The course will be compacted into June and July, although I don't expect this to be a major inconvenience."

Wes (Tue 8:12pm 192.168.0.201):"I was recently told by my Dean that we are seeing enough interest in the High-Purity Water Curriculum that the final paperwork for being able to offer an Associates of Applied Science degree will occur this Fall. We are hoping to speed up the degree process for those that are interested. Would any of you like to take two courses this Fall?"

Allan W (Tue 8:13pm 24.68.197.106):"Sure"

Allan W (Tue 8:13pm 24.68.197.106):"I thought registration for RO Prin was April 27th?"

Steve (Tue 8:13pm 208.38.86.149):"not two"

Wes (Tue 8:13pm 192.168.0.201):"You do not have to commit today. I just wondered if anyone is interested in pushing it a little."

Bill (Tue 8:14pm 65.29.55.15):"Not sure about my schedule yet"

Wes (Tue 8:14pm 192.168.0.201):"Is April 27 listed somewhere?"

Allan W (Tue 8:15pm 24.68.197.106):"it must be I listed the date in my PDA"

Wes (Tue 8:15pm 192.168.0.201):"I am late on some paperwork, but you should be able to register for the Summer course next week."

Allan W (Tue 8:16pm 24.68.197.106):"I just found it on the calendar page"

Allan W (Tue 8:16pm 24.68.197.106):"http://www.diwater.net/Reverse_Osmosis_Chemistry_Course_Support_Page.htm"

Wes (Tue 8:16pm 192.168.0.201):"oops I will change it."

Wes (Tue 8:16pm 192.168.0.201):"Anything we should cover or any other questions?"

Allan W (Tue 8:17pm 24.68.197.106):"I am good to go"

Steve (Tue 8:17pm 208.38.86.149):"Not at this time"

Bill (Tue 8:17pm 65.29.55.15):"no questions, everything is clear"

Wes (Tue 8:17pm 192.168.0.201):"next and last Class Chatroom Session: April 27 The purpose of this session will be to assist anyone who is struggling with the homework, final project, or the final exam."

Steve (Tue 8:18pm 208.38.86.149):"Are you allowed to be late with your paperwork?"

Steve (Tue 8:18pm 208.38.86.149):"OK"

Wes (Tue 8:18pm 192.168.0.201):"No. I will be severely penalized."

Wes (Tue 8:18pm 192.168.0.201):"Talk to you all soon!"

Steve (Tue 8:19pm 208.38.86.149):"When will this be posted?"

Allan W (Tue 8:19pm 24.68.197.106):"ciao for now"

Ed C (Tue 8:19pm 4.152.237.188):"thanks good night"

Ed C (Tue 8:19pm 4.152.237.188):"Logged Off"

Wes (Tue 8:19pm 192.168.0.201):"I will try to get it up by tomorrow."

Bill (Tue 8:19pm 65.29.55.15):"good night"

Bill (Tue 8:19pm 65.29.55.15):"Logged Off"

Steve (Tue 8:20pm 208.38.86.149):"Thanks, bye"

Wes (Tue 8:20pm 192.168.0.201):"bye"

Wes (Tue 8:20pm 192.168.0.201):"Logged Off"

Allan W (Tue 8:20pm 24.68.197.106):"Logged Off"

(Tue 8:20pm 24.68.197.106):"Just Logged On."

(Tue 8:21pm 24.68.197.106):"Logged Off"

Steve (Tue 8:21pm 208.38.86.149):"Logged Off"

Paul (Tue 8:23pm 209.110.230.80):"Just Logged On."

Paul (Tue 8:23pm 209.110.230.80):"Logged Off"